Chief Instigator, Dan Martell, on the Power of Authentic Relationships

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Dan Martell

So I just think if we can minimize the time we spend in that question mark lack of confidence, self-doubt mode and just kind of swing ourselves back using something like the achievement list, it helps because all success continues to build upon that. And again, people like we, we humans will much faster rise to the occasion from the expectation of their peers than anything else they could possibly do from profit will recur.

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Ben Hillman

It protects the hustle. A show about those in the trenches actually doing the work.

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Patrick Campbell

I'm Patrick Campbell.

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Neel Desai

And I'm Neil Dhesi.

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Ben Hillman

And on today's show, how chief instigator Dan Martel went from run ins with the law to serial success by leveraging the power of authentic relationships.

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Patrick Campbell

When you first start a company, people ask you what is going to be the number one barrier to your success? And oftentimes a first time founder, especially like myself back in the day, you think it's going to be the product, the marketing, the sales, the operations, fundraising, the having fundraising. There's there's going to be a whole host of things.

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Patrick Campbell

In actuality, what you very, very quickly learn is that your greatest successes and your greatest failures all revolve around people. And we've heard this time and time again for many, many guests that we've interviewed on some level, there's always some aspect of people, but you truly don't realize how important people are until you try to basically push some sort of goal forward, whether it's a company, a nonprofit, some sort of political initiative or anything in between.

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Neel Desai

I think what's interesting is beyond just people helping you with specific tasks, people give you context, right? They give you perspective and a different take on the way you see things.

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Patrick Campbell

And that's an important nuance point because essentially what's happening is people do help you actually get stuff done because we're only one human being. And you know, we have the same time as everyone else. And even if we maximize everything Elon Musk style, you still can't you know, build a car company or a space company based on just one human being.

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Patrick Campbell

But the nuance point is what you started to point out there, which is people give you context, but also provides you a community to lessen the things that are happening, either through helping you through those particular pieces that are terrible or basically by telling you it's going to be okay. And they faced this before and it feels terrible now, but it's going to be better.

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Neel Desai

So are you saying it takes a village to start a business?

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Patrick Campbell

I am not referencing whichever you know, old school education professor or Hillary Clinton. I believe you said that a lot. But yeah, that's essentially what's happening. And I think the larger point is that community mitigates adversity. Essentially. You have so much adversity, whether it's intentional, unintentional, when you're building a company because you're literally taking nothing and creating something or you have something and you're trying to make it into something big.

00:02:43:23 - 00:03:07:14

Patrick Campbell

And as you get more people, it becomes more multifaceted, which becomes more complicated and you get less control and the kind of community of your company takes over. Sure. And what I'm most excited about is talking to Dan Martell today. He's because Dan Martell is perfect for the concept of people, community and kind of everything in between. He's extremely successful SAS founder, He's founded I mean, to many companies he's going to go through it.

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Patrick Campbell

But in addition to that, there's no one that embodies the sense of community and people more. The Dan Martell and was kind of fascinating about it. He embodies it to such an extent that when I first started hanging out with Dan, I thought it was a fake. I actually thought it was inauthentic because he's so nice, he's so helpful.

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Patrick Campbell

And yes, he's he wants to build a business and, you know, he has intentions when he wants to build a business. But this is someone who genuinely pushes community forward, not in like a fufu, like free love sort of way, but very much into a, hey, this is going to help me be successful way, and you should follow this playbook, too.

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Neel Desai

So I know Dan a little bit from his content, but let's jump in and hear from him personally.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah, definitely. And pay careful attention to how his early interactions with the law and actually going to prison really shaped his future in the world of not only technology but also having this community centricity.

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Dan Martell

A couple of years ago, I started Share my Story just because it really shaped who I became know. I think looking back, you can connect the dots and you know, I grew up in a really challenging environment as a teenager. I ended up my mom's an alcoholic. My dad was in sales, so wasn't home a whole lot and ended up spending too much time with guys twice my age teaching me stuff I probably should've been learning as a teenager.

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Dan Martell

And by the time I was 17, I ended up in jail twice. You know, just super angry, you know, depression challenges. And it was a moment where I almost took my life in a high speed chase that I was alive the next day and realized somebody must've been looking out for me. And after going to two adult jail for the severity of my crimes for nine months and then ended up 11 months in rehab, it was at the end of that that I discovered this yellow book on Java programing.

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Dan Martell

And yeah, this maintenance guy named Rick was asked me to clean out one of the cabins in an old church camp, and they had a 486 computer and I booted it up and tap, tap, tap. And the thing said, Hello World. And it just it literally became my new addiction. And entrepreneurship shortly after became the ultimate personal development program.

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Dan Martell

I feel blessed to be here, man.

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Patrick Campbell

Do you feel like you needed an addiction in your life?

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Dan Martell

I mean, I am. I still have that today. Like, I don't play video games for that reason. I you know, I'm very careful what I say yes to just just because I'm the kind of guy and I think a lot of entrepreneurs and type-A people like this, it's like when we find stuff that we love to do. Yeah, I can, I can hyperfocus, but I also struggle with ADHD.

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Dan Martell

So it's like this weird dichotomy of pushing on the world to change when it doesn't want to and being okay with that to struggling every day to make sure that I actually am productive and I produce because left to my own device, I think I would I would be a very unproductive person. So a lot of routine and rituals just to make that happen.

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Patrick Campbell

Totally. And when you're looking at so you've started some programing. What was was there like a first job where you work for someone and you jump right into trying to build somebody?

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Dan Martell

I mean, my dad always joked that he wish I found something that I was passion about that wasn't illegal for many years. So when I when I when I told him about, you know, program, I mean, he was clearly excited and his role was as long as I consumed the book, he would there was an unlimited budget. So in the first 12 months he spent probably $3,000 reading every book at the local bookstore on database design, each programing UX.

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Dan Martell

I mean, every year I mean, some people don't remember cold fusion, like back in the day, like I learned it all. Oh, that's awesome. Perl scripting and the internet. Really. This is 96, 97 and I mean, my first app I ever built was in VB three, and it was it was a way for friends to build CDs that I would burn on my burner without them being on my computer.

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Dan Martell

Like it would actually like synchronize using FTP. So I, I've always had the entrepreneurial gene. I just didn't use it for anything good until I discovered computers.

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Patrick Campbell

No, that's awesome. You're more of an OG than I thought.

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Dan Martell

I mean, that's that's one of the things.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah. What was like that first product that you tried to start selling? Yeah.

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Dan Martell

I mean, so the first thing that, you know, I called the first incorporation because we all have, you know, I always ask, well, how many domains did they buy? Your idea is projects. You know, I feel I feel blessed. I mean, I've been doing it now for 20 years. I started five companies, three or successfully exited to venture backed, and I had the extreme privilege of investing in over 40 companies.

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Dan Martell

An angel investor like Intercom and you to me and on balance and get around and just incredible founders but the first thing I ever built was maritime vacation because my dad had a cottage and he wanted to rent it and you know, he's trying to I hang out with them. He just always answering his phone, answering the same 15 questions about is it available?

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Dan Martell

Do you allowed pets, you know, what does it look like, blah, blah, blah. And I was like that know this thing called the Internet you might want to use? And I convinced him to pay me. I overpriced the hosting that I charged him to really fund the development and the infrastructure I was going to need to actually build.

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Dan Martell

And that was built called cold fusion and that became maritime vacation, not I mean, early Airbnb. Ask the RPO type companies, is it just.

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Patrick Campbell

For that property or.

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Dan Martell

Well, that was my problem is I called it maritime vacation. So like it's this small part in eastern Canada. Okay, So I mean, it's always funny, like so many great lessons. So I did it for a year and a half. It was a passion, but it wasn't my problem. I had obviously I cared about, you know, solving it for my dad, but it failed because the guy with at the Cottages.com in Ontario clearly had a bigger vision for what it could have been.

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Dan Martell

And I think that's just important as an entrepreneur to say, like plan to be successful sometimes, because I think that, you know, there's these quick decisions that you make in the early days that me you know, something a little bit more time on a vision could actually save you quite a bit of time in the future.

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Patrick Campbell

So after that, you had a couple of nice.

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Dan Martell

Hosting company and be hosts, which is actually a big failure. So the first few companies are complete failures. I just got them out of my way by the time I was like 24.

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Patrick Campbell

We all have that.

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Dan Martell

You got to just get them done. I just tell people, start, learn, move on, and it'll get there. What were the hits? What did your technologies? I start when I was 24. It was an enterprise portal company. We specialize on Fortune 500. No good reason other than I had a job for six months. That was the only job I've ever had.

00:09:11:23 - 00:09:31:21

Dan Martell

And they they trained me on this technology and I did sales engineering for them. So when I decided to start my own company, I figure I'll sell the same types of customers. I mean, it was just such a growth curve. The reason why my first two companies failed is because I was more of an introverted tech guy and didn't realize I needed a team to need, didn't understand how to communicate.

00:09:32:04 - 00:09:51:03

Dan Martell

Selling was a big thing. So when I started Spirit, I took my life savings at that point was $17,000. I had saved up consulting, hired three guys and then bought a ton of books on sales. And so we're talking the early Zig Ziglar is and Jeffrey get my little red book of selling chat homes the ultimate sales machine.

00:09:51:09 - 00:10:10:06

Dan Martell

And these are on CD and I would just like drive around burning gas listening because I wouldn't listen to the books otherwise. I knew myself and it was it was such a journey. I mean, I almost went bankrupt two years and thinking here I go again. You know, I had a dozen people doing a million and a half in sales, and I thought, Jeez, know, I'm going to fail.

00:10:10:06 - 00:10:25:14

Dan Martell

And I had mentors in my life and, you know, kind of like guys when I was a teenager that showed up and believed in me when I didn't see it in myself. I had guys in the business sense and it took me that long, I mean, almost nine years to finally realize, like having mentors was a really good idea.

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Dan Martell

And I owe it all to a guy named Jerry Pine. You know, he's he's an OG in our community. And at the time he was like 72 and cold email turned into a coffee, turned into meeting him at his board room with all his partners. And, you know, they they showed me what was possible. Yeah. It was really, really neat, neat time in life.

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Patrick Campbell

I don't know if clarity was right after that.

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Dan Martell

No time to slow down.

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Patrick Campbell

Okay.

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Dan Martell

Yeah.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah. But that kind of influence, clarity at some point, I mean, like.

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Dan Martell

You know, it's influenced me is just the power of people. Somebody asked me that a couple days ago. They said, like, how do you think of, like, the value of relationships as an entrepreneur? And I've always looked as my life, not as a linear growth curve, but really step functions of growth, right? So like and when I look at those step functions, there is a person involved, like there is some conversation that inspired me.

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Dan Martell

There is some new information that I learned there was some realization that you got exposed to. And I mean, so after Spirit, you know, I built it to 3 million a year company, sold it 28 before the crash and decided to move to San Francisco to see if all this crazy things that I was hearing online were actually true.

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Dan Martell

But the valley and it turns out it is right. It's Disneyland for tech entrepreneurs. And, you know, I just got lucky to meet some really incredible founders like Heaton Shaw and Dave McClure and Travis Kalanick and all these like that, that co Eric Reese, before he was the Lean startup. That was my cohort in 2008. And those people had an incredible impact on my, my life.

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Dan Martell

So photos after that, that was my first funded company that I started. That was a crazy ride. Two and a half years, 50,000 customers saw that to demand for two months later got bought by Intuit for 500 million. So that was a really great acceleration of equity. And then clarity and clarity was really just this network I thought should exist to allow people to pay and talk to other people over the phone to get advice.

00:12:15:09 - 00:12:35:00

Dan Martell

Because I was I remember just sitting on the top of my condo building in San Francisco overlooking the city and just asking myself, like, what's the concentration of incredible human capital in this city? And if you're in technology, it's probably one of the highest in the world, yet it's not accessible to any person. You need to network, you need to be here, you need to create value.

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Dan Martell

What if there was a way to unlock that? And that was the vision for clarity. Wow.

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Neel Desai

There's a lot to unpack there.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah. And he kind of glossed over that whole tried to take my own life in a high speed chase thing. I don't mean I'm laughing nervously at it. I might like the idea, but I think the one thing I've learned with Dan is that he is like he's oddly spiritual. I don't know if he's religious, but I think like all of these things have shaped him so much and they've just become part of his DNA that I really appreciate.

00:13:05:21 - 00:13:22:20

Patrick Campbell

He's so open about talking about them, right? Like he's so open that it almost was so nonchalant that he was in prison and, you know, did all these different things. And I think that that then shaped him so much. And he he kind of vectored into being all about people. He kind of vectored in to going back to people with clarity and these other things.

00:13:22:20 - 00:13:34:19

Patrick Campbell

And I think that he finally had some people in his life who really, really help him kind of push things forward and support him. And this whole concept of like community mitigating that adversity that he clearly went to early in life.

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Neel Desai

Right. It's interesting him looking back at like specific inflection points where meeting someone or having a conversation with them drastically changed the direction of his life. Right. And and after the whole present part, you know, he learned how to code. He started a company. He failed a couple of times. And then it was off to the races.

00:13:49:02 - 00:14:08:20

Patrick Campbell

And then he kind of circled back on it, as I was saying, with, you know, hey, how do I help write more entrepreneurs? And this cohort of people that I was in a cohort that's extremely successful. Yeah, you know, Travis Heaton, these other folks. I think what was kind of interesting, though, is I'm always fascinated people. So, you know, personally I've had I haven't gone to prison, but I have yet.

00:14:08:20 - 00:14:32:13

Patrick Campbell

Yet? No, Jesus, Neal. No, but I have I have gone through some pretty tough adversity, you know, with my childhood and stuff like that. And, you know, it's not the forum to kind of go through this. But what I will say is that when I meet people who have gone through And-And and get deep into his family dynamics, which, you know, is a little bit similar to my family dynamics growing up, but when you meet these types of people, it's always interesting when they kind of come out the other side, like understanding the why.

00:14:32:21 - 00:14:58:19

Patrick Campbell

Like, why, why did you turn around versus, you know, continuing to be addicted, continuing to, you know, kind of take your life into one particular direction. And I actually asked Dan this very specifically because I think it's a really, really powerful answer. And it's one of those things that I think is really important, as all of us listening or watching to understand, is that if you're not if you're not the Dan, you should be the other person, right?

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Neel Desai

So let's kick it over to Dan to learn more.

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Patrick Campbell

I hear a lot of like pay it forward and a lot of the things that you're doing. So there's a lot of paid for it in the nonprofit stuff where I want to ask you about. The second is a lot of pay it forward in like the networking stuff and even like the pay it forward and the coaching, right.

00:15:19:12 - 00:15:23:00

Patrick Campbell

Is that something do you see that too? That something that drives you or is it not due?

00:15:23:00 - 00:15:41:02

Dan Martell

Dude, I'll be I'll be honest, man. Like I was four months in jail and got through, thrown in the hole, solitary confinement. And on the third day, this guy and his guard named Brian opened the door and asked me to follow him. And at 17 years old, he sat me down in the guard unit, which I'd never been in in the months I'd been there.

00:15:41:14 - 00:15:59:06

Dan Martell

And he just asked me what I was doing there. And I said, Well, you know, high speed chase and all this stuff. He said, What are you doing here in jail? And I said, I don't understand. He goes, I see you out there trying to do your homework and stay out of the trouble. And I just want you to know you don't belong here.

00:15:59:06 - 00:16:18:01

Dan Martell

At 17, that was the first time anybody had ever said that to me. I don't know, man. Maybe it's for Brian. Maybe it's for Jerry Pine. Maybe it's for the heat and chores. I'm a byproduct of the community, for sure, and I just. I just feel super blast so many times. I actually feel like I'm not doing enough, you know?

00:16:18:01 - 00:16:25:06

Dan Martell

And I. And I. And I also feel I'm just getting started, man. Like, I'm going to be building companies until they they pull the plug. Like, that's just who I am to you.

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Patrick Campbell

So you do a lot of stuff for rescues like tell me a little bit about that.

00:16:29:06 - 00:16:44:23

Dan Martell

Ever since I got out of Portage, I've been a big part of their fundraising effort. I go and visit three or four times a year and talk to the cohort of kids. I mean, the challenge, if you have anybody with addiction in your life and they get sober is, you know, their biggest fear is just having a pretty vanilla plain life, you know?

00:16:44:23 - 00:17:02:21

Dan Martell

And my life looks nothing like that. Yeah. So I really enjoy going and talking to kids and sharing my real story with them and the challenges I went through in my journey. And and honestly, I think that if anybody's poised to build businesses, it's these kids because they're so resourceful, so creative, so tenacious, and have nothing to lose.

00:17:02:21 - 00:17:17:10

Dan Martell

So my rule is if you get out and stay sober, come see me. I'll help you create the most incredible business you've ever seen. And that's just like on me. Like it's just a done deal. You show up, do the work, it's going to happen. So that's a big part of it. Just I want to help them create confidence through creating businesses.

00:17:17:10 - 00:17:48:06

Dan Martell

I think most kids think they're broken and it's it's I think people that have gone through the most have the most to give. And these kids definitely have gone through some crazy stuff worse than I'll ever experience or can understand. And I didn't have somebody like me that showed up to tell a story. I had people that read books and had degrees and tried to give me counseling, and I knew, you know, especially as an entrepreneur, I resonate and connect more with the founder who's been there giving me advice than some guy that just you know, And that's what I find a lot of fun in my coaching because a lot of personal stories.

00:17:53:14 - 00:18:11:18

Patrick Campbell

That's in powerful stuff. Yeah, 100%. And, and what I take away from that is you're either a Dan or you're a Brian, right? And if you're if you're a Dan, hopefully you can find a Brian. Hopefully you can find someone to actually really, really help you. But I think that there's there's a lot more Brian out there than Dan's, thankfully.

00:18:12:01 - 00:18:29:13

Patrick Campbell

And if you're a Brian you should go seek out your Dan I know it's a weird kind of way to to make that into a metaphor, but but I think that's a really, really powerful and and then actually it doesn't have to always be this intense right Like you don't have to find a Dan that is, you know, in prison or something like that going on.

00:18:29:13 - 00:19:00:23

Patrick Campbell

But finding, finding someone that you can help an early stage entrepreneur or someone who's early in product, someone you know who isn't necessarily as far along as you are. I think that's the really, really powerful thing. And this is where, you know, people are so important is that, again, it's not always as dramatic as Dan's story, but it is one of those things that people are so central to success and that help that you will give that particular Dan or whomever is going to come back tenfold, especially as you surround yourself with other people who can help you as well.

00:19:01:02 - 00:19:18:11

Neel Desai

Right. I think this is evident by not only Dan's ventures, but just how he thinks about going about life. Right? The communities are part of the entrepreneurs he invests in, coaches, etc. This has clearly impacted Dan so much that it's sort of taken over how he approaches other people.

00:19:18:11 - 00:19:35:21

Patrick Campbell

Yeah, hundred percent. And I think it's one of those things where success is basically people. Yeah, And I think that when you're building something, anything large or anything great, like it's going to involve more than one person and as we kind of talked about previously, But I think the big thing is, is just making one of your core values or principles about people.

00:19:35:21 - 00:19:58:01

Patrick Campbell

And you might not be the most charismatic person, you might not be the most outgoing. I'm ironically an introvert. People don't realize that, but it's one of those things that you start to push yourself and find those mediums that make sense. And what I'm excited about for for the rest of the time here is actually going through some of the practical advice that Dan has to be more people centric, especially out in the community, so you can build your own community and kind of find that tribe that you have.

00:19:58:06 - 00:20:15:06

Neel Desai

This was really interesting for me because it's so easy to come off as inauthentic these days, right? With the growth hacks and networking and going to events. I actually just stopped going to events altogether because I couldn't take it. But I found it interesting how Dan can bring that authentic desire to help others and still do it in an impactful way.

00:20:15:07 - 00:20:30:09

Patrick Campbell

Yeah, hundred percent. And let's talk about that after this next clip. So because I think it's I think it's an interesting discussion on we've clearly established it's worth it. But how do you maintain that authenticity and how do you find that particular group, especially in a world where there's, you know, a lot of charlatans that are out there.

00:20:30:16 - 00:20:47:12

Patrick Campbell

But let's kick it over to Dan to get some practical nature on, you know, success actually being those people. What's that process for helping someone? You know, look at this. I feel like the first step is, is you just have to value people and realize how powerful to be sure is.

00:20:47:14 - 00:21:06:18

Dan Martell

Yeah. And I think you just need to care. I mean, I'm just lucky, you know, when I was starting my my third company's here and decided that reading books is a good idea other than technical books. One of the early books I read was called Love is Killer App, which most people have never heard. Tim Yeah. Tim Sanders is the author and he was the CEO of Yahoo!

00:21:06:18 - 00:21:19:16

Dan Martell

And it was called a Killer App, which I was technical. So I, I got the reference and I mean, it couldn't have been a better book for me to read as the first book. And I didn't even read it. I listen to it on CD because that's how, you know, at my age. Yes, that's how little I read.

00:21:20:01 - 00:21:41:15

Dan Martell

And it was an argument for being a good person which which in business, I think a lot of people have never started a business. They think entrepreneurs are evil, which is crazy, that you should collect knowledge for your customers so you consume and read books and that your network or your network is your network, right? I don't like that concept, but just really putting a premium on the value of relationships.

00:21:41:18 - 00:22:02:05

Dan Martell

And then I read Keith Ross's book, I Never Eat Alone, and that was that was it. So I've now hosted easily 2000 plus founder lunches, dinners and breakfasts in 2000. Easily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I travel, I'll sometimes do three a day. Holy cow. Because it's just this really incredible leverage way of just like having people, especially like yourself, that puts out content.

00:22:02:05 - 00:22:23:11

Dan Martell

You've got all these inbound. I just say, Well, are you free for breakfast, lunch or dinner? And yeah, two days ago I just like had eight strangers. I never met founders and invite them out for dinner and we had incredible conversation. And you can never figure out where the like, why you do it. I just know that A I want to help other people as much as I can.

00:22:23:14 - 00:22:48:22

Dan Martell

And b, you can achieve anything if you help enough people achieve what they're looking for. Right. Somebody I forgot who quoted that. But I mean, raising money for Mark Cuban with a relationship with a guy named Alex Byrd that came from a meal getting invited to hang out with Richard Branson for a week was a byproduct for years after the fact from a dinner I hosted in San Francisco from a guy that I guess impacted his life was friends with Richard and thought enough to invite me when he got the invite.

00:22:48:22 - 00:23:01:16

Dan Martell

I mean, it's it's meeting my wife. Rene was a byproduct of. Yeah. Like I mean, if it's your team, it's a people thing. And if it's life, you know, success is a byproduct of how much value create for other people.

00:23:02:04 - 00:23:09:07

Patrick Campbell

And let's say if someone's kind of starting out because like we all have networks, right? And if we get a little tactical, how do you start building that network?

00:23:09:21 - 00:23:32:23

Dan Martell

Yeah, I think the first thing is ask yourself if your current relationships are supporting your past or your future, because I think a lot of people still spend too much time with folks that they went to high school with partying on weekends and doing barbecues with with with friends and unfortunately just don't see the world the way they do and and can't really share in that vision or excitement for what's possible because that's not their reality.

00:23:32:23 - 00:23:48:02

Dan Martell

So I think that's just first thing is realizing you need to spend more time that's going to with people. As for your future, I like the meal concept because it takes the pressure off, especially if you have, you know, five other people there. You don't have to carry a conversation one on one. You want to make it even easier on yourself.

00:23:48:02 - 00:24:05:23

Dan Martell

Find somebody else that might be a little bit more outgoing. This known in your community and ask to co-host dinner with them. And it could be a lunch. They make it even easier. So it's a lunch. You create a theme. You invite each to other people that six total six is a good number because you have one conversation and just see how it goes.

00:24:05:23 - 00:24:29:05

Dan Martell

And if you enjoy it, do it once a month, you know, and just try to invite new people and slowly but surely you become the the nucleus, right? The people whose work connector. But it's really just you're the person that takes a little extra time to invite folks. So let's say we're at a conference like, you know, like the the, the, the lack of invites I got from other founders, from the speakers.

00:24:29:05 - 00:24:47:14

Dan Martell

Like, I got some, but I just assumed, like, everybody would do it because it's just such a low hanging fruit. If you're speaking in a city that's not your native country or city, there's probably a good chance you have some open windows. And if somebody reaches out and says, I'm going to host this dinner for you that you're going to say yes, but it's still not something that's widely leveraged.

00:24:47:14 - 00:24:53:05

Dan Martell

Are you?

00:24:53:05 - 00:25:12:11

Neel Desai

So I get this in theory, right. And I totally agree with Dan, especially on like the one on one side of of building relationships. But I struggle with this, too, because, you know, I don't speak much. I don't get out there nearly as much as Dan. So, like, how does this apply to me? Right? Because I have just stopped going to SAS events now.

00:25:12:11 - 00:25:13:03

Neel Desai

I can't stand them.

00:25:13:07 - 00:25:14:04

Patrick Campbell

Why can't you see them?

00:25:14:20 - 00:25:25:04

Neel Desai

Because like, honestly, most of them are brands of purchasing, laying or creating hype or demoing products. I don't want like meet ups that are self intended. Like I just.

00:25:25:16 - 00:25:45:03

Patrick Campbell

This kind of funny is I think that's part of the problem with SAS events like B2B SAS events particularly, is that technically everyone in the room can sell to everyone else. So it's just like sales, as I say, sales, right? Like everyone's in blazers kind of hanging out. When you go to other events, you know, we go to subscription ecommerce events, we've been seeing some media events.

00:25:45:16 - 00:26:10:15

Patrick Campbell

They're dramatically different because everyone is is not it's not even access to events that they're competitive, but especially they're they're not competitive because they're all selling to like a wide market of consumers or they're selling something really in particular, like a make a box versus a dog box. Right. And so it's one of those things that those conferences are actually I love going to those conferences subscription, e-commerce, media, etc., because everyone's trying to help each other.

00:26:10:19 - 00:26:29:10

Patrick Campbell

And so to answer your question, I think that I think this is helpful for you because remember the core, right? Like some of the practical advice he was giving was, hey, if you travel a lot, you go to conferences, these types of things, but your version of that is going to be different, right? You do, you know, product meet ups with some of your peers over at Drift and some of the other companies that they're at.

00:26:29:10 - 00:26:47:09

Patrick Campbell

You do that pretty consistently. Some of the folks that you graduated with that that's the same thing, right? And I think what you could probably do is kind of scale those 1 to 1 relationships a little bit more and not go like full conference, but maybe you, you know, meet up with, hey, I'm coming into town, I'm going on vacation to San Diego or something like that.

00:26:47:18 - 00:27:06:02

Patrick Campbell

The day before I'm going to organize and then just have some coffee dates. Right. And that might work better for you because, you know, you don't want to go to the big, you know, conference in these types of things. Or what you can do is also, you know, even online, Right. I think that there's a lot of people who use the excuse of have social anxiety of not actually being out there.

00:27:06:02 - 00:27:27:09

Patrick Campbell

And I get that. But it also comes down to like building those one on one relationships. And for Dan, it's just a one to many, one scalable type of way. And he does a lot of one on one relationships as well. What I worry about is the authenticity aspect, because I think that even though Dan is super authentic, remember what I mentioned before, which is when I first met him, I was like, Oh, there's an angle here.

00:27:27:09 - 00:27:46:00

Patrick Campbell

And Dan has an angle ultimately because, you know, his view is basically that eventually this is all going to wash out and it's going to help him not only from giving him perspective and context, but also helping him with his business. But there's there's a pure core there, which I think is like underappreciated because there's plenty of people who network basically for utility.

00:27:46:05 - 00:28:00:13

Patrick Campbell

I remember when I was living in DC and I worked in DC, basically you would go to the bar and it was like, Oh, who do you work for when you named who you work for? If it was useful, that person they keep talking. If they won't, they would literally just walk away, right? And so I think there's that authenticity and that organic nature.

00:28:00:21 - 00:28:17:00

Patrick Campbell

And all Dan is doing is putting a little bit of like a framework around it, a little bit of a system around it that fits to his style and his needs and his schedule. And I think you can do the exact same thing on a practical basis to basically scale those relationships and then make sure you're fostering those relationships in the long term.

00:28:17:02 - 00:28:37:23

Neel Desai

I think that makes sense. I think especially in the tech world, we get caught up with like having a personal CRM and like optimizing, optimizing, optimizing. But yeah, totally. I think for me, having peers that are a couple of years ahead of me at other companies and a couple of years below me has been really, really valuable and like not only learning from others but teaching others too, because I think that's when it solidifies things.

00:28:37:23 - 00:29:05:23

Patrick Campbell

One of the most high impact things that I did, and I didn't do this intentionally, it just kind of fell into it. I became friends with the Litmus guys, the Wistia guys and the Help Scout guys. These were all folks that were a few years ahead of me or in terms of our trajectory and it was so helpful, particularly because, you know, we had kind of a crazy founding story, which we'll maybe talk about in a B-side episode at some point, but it was one of those situations where it was so helpful just to learn from them.

00:29:05:23 - 00:29:17:19

Patrick Campbell

So I think you doing that is really, really helpful because when you come up with, Oh, I'm dealing with this, I'm dealing with that, whether it's a really practical thing or more of an existential crisis, you have that particular group to kind of go to. Do you have like mentors?

00:29:18:20 - 00:29:40:01

Neel Desai

Yes. I think what's interesting is over the years, like, the scope of our conversations have changed, right? So it went from like college applications to picking a career to right now that I have a job, how do I maximize it to even, you know, how to how do you become an adult? Some are more structured than others and but ironically, most of them have.

00:29:40:01 - 00:29:45:17

Neel Desai

Like I've stumbled into those relationships because of other activities. So absolutely. Yeah. What I you.

00:29:45:18 - 00:29:58:14

Patrick Campbell

That's an important I do as well and I think that's a that's the important point. What you point out is it's an organic activity. It's one of those things where I think if you try to make it too formulaic, what ends up happening is people can see through that.

00:29:58:14 - 00:30:17:12

Neel Desai

Yeah, cool. So let's kick it back to Dan to learn a little bit more about the practicality of this. Right? Because everything from who pays for these to how do you manage the information without a huge system around it? And ultimately how do you stay authentic as you go about this process? Right. Because I don't have ADHD like Dan, but I always like chasing the new shiny object.

00:30:17:12 - 00:30:27:04

Neel Desai

So I want to hear from Dan how he actually, you know, actually goes about doing this.

00:30:27:04 - 00:30:41:22

Patrick Campbell

You know, valuing people is the first thing and realizing like the value that they're two way street, right? In addition to that, you know, being some sort of practical like trying to execute on this and just, you know, making it a priority. But how do you then foster those the do you foster those relationships? And I.

00:30:41:22 - 00:30:56:03

Dan Martell

Love that. I love the organic. I don't force it. I think you just naturally gravitate towards some people and other people you just can't connect with and you just let it go, let it be. I find people that are too tactical or people to shake your hand and like, who do you need to meet? And yeah, and oh, okay.

00:30:56:03 - 00:31:10:11

Dan Martell

And they write. It's just like it's not me. So I at most I have a sit, I have a list with each city in the world. And if we meet and I liked you, I put you on the list so that at least I know next time I go there, there is a person I thought enough to put an email next to.

00:31:10:11 - 00:31:29:08

Dan Martell

And I use Facebook. Most people don't know you can search who lives in and a city name, so you can even look at your Facebook connections and who live in those cities. But for the most part, I don't I don't make it too tactical, except when I'm trying to build a network in an industry. So when I was, you know, New to Flow Town, I met Sean Ellis.

00:31:29:08 - 00:31:52:10

Dan Martell

He, you know, back then we call it metric space marketing eventually became growth hackers. But in the marketing side, I strategically organized dinners around marketing, right? With clarity. I organize marketplace dinners. So there was a lot of cold emails out to founders, but it's surprising if you email them and they're in the space and you're organizing a theme dinner, they don't get a whole lot of those invites and everybody's got to eat.

00:31:52:10 - 00:32:14:11

Dan Martell

Anyway, I'd say it was like a 90% show up, right? You know, And it was just a really great way for me to connect with folks that were further along, again, supporting my future, to talk to to people like me from CYBERCOM about how to build networks and marketplaces. Yeah, So that's a little bit more tactical. But I think back to your point, you got you got to be curious.

00:32:14:17 - 00:32:35:15

Dan Martell

I think that's the thing that I really I really find everybody's got a story and everybody's got something they're passionate about. And and when you find that out, it's like the most exciting thing ever. And I naturally just want to help people if I can. And typically, the highest currency I can use is an introduction to somebody that can solve a big problem for them, especially if I don't have any experience in that space.

00:32:36:09 - 00:32:40:05

Dan Martell

It doesn't cost me anything and can be a really valuable for both parties.

00:32:40:09 - 00:32:48:21

Patrick Campbell

That's cool. Super selfish and tactical. Question Do you pay for these centers? Yeah. So there's a more like whoever reaches for the check kind of the thing or. Yeah.

00:32:49:01 - 00:33:06:09

Dan Martell

The funny part is if you do invite people that are further along, they don't. So I've done all of the above. I've organized 100 person dinners where everybody paid 75 bucks to go and I was highly curated. I have done 16 person more involved dinners and I and I had my my lawyer come. He wanted to come and he paid for it.

00:33:06:09 - 00:33:20:02

Dan Martell

If it's a bunch of up and coming entrepreneurs, I'll usually pick up the check just as, you know, an honor of how it should be. I always say, Who's the youngest person in business? You're the most in person or in person at this meal. Everybody else, let's support that person.

00:33:20:02 - 00:33:21:23

Patrick Campbell

I always do that. Whoever's furthest along.

00:33:22:01 - 00:33:44:03

Dan Martell

Should pick it out. Yeah, No, I like that too. I just. One thing I don't want to do is make anybody feel like they owe anybody. So I do usually say we're all going Dutch. And then if for some reason somebody feels inspired, they can do it. I just, you know, I say, I don't, but I do. I did it the other night, so I'd be lying if I said I don't, But I don't think that should be a reason people don't do it.

00:33:44:11 - 00:33:58:16

Dan Martell

And I feel like that might be. And I think just saying in the email invite or in the counter invite that everybody's going Dutch, don't pick a crazy expensive place to pick a really good, fun place. And I like to do them in the same places all the time. So in my home town I do it the same restaurant and it's just fun.

00:33:58:16 - 00:34:08:22

Dan Martell

Or that way the owner absolutely appreciate it. There's a narrative, there's a story behind it. You get to know the waitresses and they they love to introduce you. Meet your new friends. And yeah, it's a lot of fun.

00:34:08:22 - 00:34:09:18

Patrick Campbell

Where do you go in Boston?

00:34:10:03 - 00:34:24:18

Dan Martell

I don't go to Boston enough, but that's a great example of just like, Hey, Patrick, let's co-host a dinner. You know, you invite a couple people I met a couple people. This is a theme and I don't have to pick this place because you know the city the best. So I do that a lot and it's fun that way.

00:34:24:18 - 00:34:35:22

Dan Martell

And I just think, again, my life has had incredible people show up. It seems to be just the right time. And I think it's definitely a byproduct of trying to just put out as much value as I can.

00:34:36:02 - 00:34:54:15

Patrick Campbell

Does this ever give you I know you mentioned you actually, you know, struggle with A.D.D., but like, does this ever give you like, you know, you want to chase everything because you're meeting so many people with so many cool ideas. I know you're doing like a ton of coaching right now and you assess academy. I don't know if you ever want to go like back into, you know, building a big company or something like that.

00:34:54:15 - 00:35:16:20

Dan Martell

You know, that's where the investing came. I've been investing as an angel investor for over 12 years. Yeah, Yeah. And it was just a byproduct of meeting these great founders and wanting to be helpful, but a little bit more aligned in their success and outcome. I think I've gotten good at it. I think what happens is with with, you know, I've been doing this for 20 years, This is a long time and you kind of realize that shiny object is actually not always the best thing to do.

00:35:17:04 - 00:35:41:10

Dan Martell

Like you, you do it long enough. You realize like, oh, actually focus, you know, masterful execution will always be the next shiny marketing, next shiny business, small like shiny industry. But that being said, I owned a Bitcoin machine four years ago, an ATM machine. I've invested in drone navigation, so I feel like I definitely see the things coming and try to find the founders that are executing it to inform me.

00:35:42:00 - 00:36:03:14

Dan Martell

But I don't feel like I need to jump into it and the future for me is I'm having so much fun coaching what I consider the next generation of SAS founders. I don't need to be the guy that creates it from zero and it'll probably more of me either. And I've done this privately. We haven't really announced anything with a few founders and putting together search funds, right?

00:36:03:17 - 00:36:17:01

Dan Martell

I'm an NLP and they're funded by other assets, so I think that'll probably be my, my future. But for now, man, it's just my kids coaching. And then I do a lot of work with that rescue. Oh.

00:36:19:12 - 00:36:32:21

Neel Desai

All right. So I get the practicality of this, right? But what what's interesting is that there's a really big emotional piece of this as well, because you're putting yourself out there, right? You build this community, you're going to be afraid to fail a little bit, right, Because you're going to be vulnerable.

00:36:33:01 - 00:36:52:11

Patrick Campbell

Sure. And I think but the vulnerability I think what Dan, Dan has been getting at and not necessarily in this last clip, but he's getting at that. Dan is so out there, I don't know necessarily if he's like fully transparent, necessarily, kind of like some of these like very transparent folks out there. But he's out there with have been in prison, tried to kill myself through a high speed chase.

00:36:52:20 - 00:37:14:17

Patrick Campbell

I've been in solitary confinement. I had these failures. I've had these successes. He's put so much out there that it's almost like, hey, this is me. Like, accept me for me or let's call it a day. Right? And I think that there's there's a certain freedom in that. And as someone who has like a bit of social anxiety, like I've never been diagnosed, but there's a reason, like I like to speak in the mornings when I go to conferences because everyone will like, come to me who wants to talk to me.

00:37:15:01 - 00:37:35:14

Patrick Campbell

I think there's like something special there of being okay to be vulnerable and be confident and, you know, essentially comfortable in your own skin and I think that that's a big thing that I've had to learn in my life. And thankfully profitable has been a huge aspect of that, of getting secure in myself and in basically overcoming some of that anxiety when it comes to other people judging me.

00:37:35:14 - 00:37:51:07

Patrick Campbell

Because people are going to judge you either way. They're going to judge you whether you think they're judging you or not. And in addition to that, it's one of those things that we all realize that we're in the same boat, like I'm further along in my career than you. I know you're going to fail at your point in your career because I failed at that point.

00:37:51:13 - 00:38:02:23

Patrick Campbell

You're going to overall succeed because I know that's there and I'm going to help you and you're going to know that I'm going to fail. And so when I fail, you're going to give me a little bit of like, I know it's hard. And when you fail, I'm going to be like, Yep, I know it's hard, but Neil, you better fix it now.

00:38:02:23 - 00:38:18:01

Patrick Campbell

Stuff like that. But that's, that's kind of what I mean is like there's, there's some beauty in, there's a freedom in being that vulnerable, right? And it's that, you know, everyone kind of talks about this in different books. Extreme ownership. Garvey talks about that. There's so many people who talk about this because it's such a central thing to humanity.

00:38:18:08 - 00:38:32:23

Patrick Campbell

And there are so many of us in our careers that never learned that it's okay to be insecure. It's okay to be vulnerable because everyone else is vulnerable, insecure on some level. And that doesn't mean you can't be confident, doesn't mean you can't be competitive. It doesn't mean you can't think, hey, we're going to take over the world.

00:38:32:23 - 00:38:41:12

Patrick Campbell

But it does mean that you have to surround yourself with the right people to kind of put you in check or also kind of build you up when you're being a little bit too down on yourself.

00:38:41:17 - 00:38:47:09

Neel Desai

I'm sure that's even more important now than ever in a world where, like, everyone's trying to be a thought leader and an expert and a domain expert.

00:38:47:12 - 00:39:02:22

Patrick Campbell

Yeah, and that's where I think there's a there's ironically a weird I'm kind of coming around to my kind of what I started this episode with. Like, there's a weird, like, authenticity to Dan because he's consistent. That's why it's kind of interesting. He's like he's I know level you know, as is out there is like a Gary Vee, right?

00:39:03:05 - 00:39:18:21

Patrick Campbell

But the thing that I find interesting about Garvey is that he hasn't changed in what his views are and what he's saying. Like he's remained consistent. His tactics. I mean, it can be obnoxious if you watch too much or read too much. But it's one of those things where I think Dan is is just an authentic, consistent person.

00:39:18:21 - 00:39:34:19

Patrick Campbell

And so maybe initially you're kind of like, oh, what's this guy's angle? That's my little bit of East Coast coming out of me. But then all of a sudden, like over time, you're like, No, I've seen this enough times and he's spoken about this enough times and he's, you know, shown that he actually cares about the things, these things and he follows through, which I think is a really important thing.

00:39:35:02 - 00:39:56:16

Patrick Campbell

And therefore, like, I can trust him with being vulnerable on some particular level. And what I just describe it is literally building relationships. And if you don't get out there in the medium that is good for you online, zoom in person, conferences, dinners, etc., there's no way you can build that relationship with different individuals, let alone enough people to build that community that you actually have.

00:39:57:06 - 00:40:19:00

Patrick Campbell

But I think Dan has some really good advice on this because it ultimately does come back to that psyche, that emotion that you have. And I'd love for him to kind of close this out by talking to us about this, about not only being vulnerable and being comfortable with that, but also making sure you're surrounding yourself with the right type of people, because that's a thing I think we don't think about enough, which is it's not just people.

00:40:19:00 - 00:40:44:06

Patrick Campbell

It's the right type of people. I know you said your products, your community, I'm sure, given your background, there's a lot of self-doubt. And then there's also probably a lot of like actual doubt that's kind of thrust on you, like, Oh, you're never going to figure this out. Like either addiction or life. Once you, you know, where, you know, I don't jail like that kind of stuff.

00:40:44:06 - 00:40:54:09

Patrick Campbell

And then even failing as an entrepreneur, like all of a sudden, it's hard to manage that self-doubt as someone who has like that addictive personality in such of things, like how do you manage that?

00:40:54:19 - 00:41:22:02

Dan Martell

I think it's you know, what I always tell founders is we need to remind ourselves the journey we've been on right so often time and I have this process called the achievement list, and it's fairly straightforward. It's just making a list of all your achievements that you're proud of and don't discount how small they might be, because I think there's these moments in life where, you know, let's say it's an investor meeting or a key hire or a partner conversation or a conference call with a new customer potential.

00:41:22:04 - 00:41:39:22

Dan Martell

You cannot go into that meeting without your confidence being high because it's that enthusiasm and that that belief in the confidence of what you're doing. That is what's going to get the opportunity done. Nobody's 100% confident, but if we can spend less time what I call the entrepreneur pendulum from question mark, like what am I doing with my life?

00:41:39:22 - 00:42:05:00

Dan Martell

I'm going to fail again. You know, this is the end of the world to exclamation mark, which is I'm going to take over the world. I can't believe how easy this is. Why is nobody seen this before? This is amazing. You know, the unfortunate part is entrepreneurs swing between that, you know, a couple of times a week and sometimes a couple of times a day, you know, you wake up in the morning, boom, you get the email big customer release, and then 2 hours later, key employee quits on you and the afternoon you close another big deal.

00:42:05:00 - 00:42:29:17

Dan Martell

And it's just so I just think if we can minimize the time we spend in that question mark lack of confidence, self-doubt mode and just kind of swing ourselves back using something like the achievement list, it helps because all success continues to build upon that. And again, people like we, we humans will much faster rise to the occasion from the expectations of their peers and anything else they could possibly do.

00:42:30:02 - 00:42:47:22

Dan Martell

Like if you're in a group of people, we're just we're communal folks. And if you're around other folks that think way bigger than you, it'll take you a week at most to kind of start questioning, Why am I thinking so small? These people are no, no smarter than me. I've just clearly I'm missing something. And I got to figure it out.

00:42:47:22 - 00:43:07:14

Dan Martell

So I just think that self-doubt is always going to be present, especially if you're trying to do and change and create stuff new in the world. But if you can look back on that journey, it's like halfway up that mountain. Instead of looking at the peak and thinking, Man, I got to go another 10,000 feet, stopping and looking back and going, Man, look at the valley where we started, way back there.

00:43:07:23 - 00:43:31:04

Dan Martell

I think that'll that'll give you the right perspective to kind of move forward and and just just smile while you do it. I mean, that's, that's my approach. I mean, people say it and you hear it and they think it's, you know, it can't be that simple. It really is the journey. It's not the destination. Because as soon as we get that mountain top, we start looking around for the next big mount.

00:43:31:04 - 00:43:33:22

Neel Desai

All right. So this made me think of something. Have you ever fired a friend?

00:43:34:11 - 00:43:36:07

Patrick Campbell

Just like they worked here and then.

00:43:36:10 - 00:43:37:14

Neel Desai

They're like, break up with a friend.

00:43:38:15 - 00:43:43:13

Patrick Campbell

Oh, so meaning I hung out with someone. I was really good friends with them, and then I just stopped or actually were.

00:43:43:13 - 00:43:45:04

Neel Desai

Phased out either way. Yeah.

00:43:45:13 - 00:44:02:21

Patrick Campbell

Yeah. A percent. One thing that comes with maturity on some level, and I'm not saying I'm the most mature person in the world here, but one thing that comes with that is realizing that you get to choose your friends and you get to choose the people you hang out with. I think when you're early in life, you're kind of forced into, Hey, you have to go to this class of people.

00:44:03:04 - 00:44:26:15

Patrick Campbell

Then you're like, in these classes, approximately, you know, Hey, this person I'm in the dorm room with and everything is based on proximity. And then when you graduate, everyone scatters and you're like, Oh, no, like, I'm just going to keep that proximity thing going. But you don't have the density that you once did, and then all of a sudden you either just keep the friends that are going forever or you put yourself into a position where it's like, Oh, I can choose my friends.

00:44:27:00 - 00:44:44:12

Patrick Campbell

And I think that's a really important thing. You know, I'm not a big drinker. I'm not a big partier. Like, I don't mind going occasionally, but there's been friends where like literally it was like, that's their thing. Every night we're doing that and it's just not me. And I was judged for it, like not being a part of that activity or they thought I thought I was better than them.

00:44:44:12 - 00:44:59:01

Patrick Campbell

And that's not what it was at all. But it was it was just one of those things where I was like, this is isn't good for me. I have had an actual breakup, like friend breakup, which was really weird, but it was just one of those things when you have some toxicity and people are like, Well, why don't you hang out anymore?

00:44:59:01 - 00:45:17:02

Patrick Campbell

Why don't you want to like, be roommates anymore? And it's just you have to have that conversation. I think that's part of growing up is having these tough conversations and realizing you can choose your friends and you want to surround yourself with the right people that help you. And as long as you're being authentic about it and you're not being like, I would say, uppity, I guess is the right way to put it, You're actually doing it for the right reasons.

00:45:18:00 - 00:45:18:23

Patrick Campbell

I think it's totally fine.

00:45:19:00 - 00:45:25:12

Neel Desai

I think that makes sense. Something Dan said that really resonated with me was like, Are you hanging out with the type of people supporting your past or your future?

00:45:25:12 - 00:45:26:00

Patrick Campbell

I know that's.

00:45:26:00 - 00:45:37:20

Neel Desai

So powerful that that hit me because because I think you're right. It's so easy to fall into the clutch of like just proximity. But over time you that your time is valuable and you have to be more, I think, intentional about your relationships.

00:45:38:01 - 00:45:52:17

Patrick Campbell

Well, and I think that I mean, this applies to companies as well, right? Like are you hiring the team that supports the future of the past? And that's a really powerful thing to think about because no one's saying any of this is easy. Hiring the right people, you know, having the right friends, having the right peers, the right mentors.

00:45:52:17 - 00:46:09:06

Patrick Campbell

But it's about being intentional. That's what I love about Dan in all of his systems. He's got a system for everything, which I think is really, really cool. And I think it's just one of those things where evaluating, you know, our priorities going, where are you spending your time? You know, even keeping in mind that whole year, the average of the five people you hang out with the most, all that kind of fun stuff.

00:46:09:06 - 00:46:34:14

Patrick Campbell

And I think it's just making sure that you are, you know, upskilling and bringing those people along. Right. This isn't to say like, hey, we're going to get new friends every five years, but it is to more say of like, hey, like, make sure that people are helping support you, even if they're that friend for 20, 30 years that, you know, they're not necessarily going to help you or your business, but they're always going to keep you, you know, rooted in they're always going to, you know, keep keep you loyal and all that kind of fun stuff.

00:46:34:14 - 00:46:42:09

Patrick Campbell

And I think that's that's the biggest thing, is that you have a choice when it comes to people. You have a choice in how you perceive those people as well.

00:46:42:09 - 00:46:43:13

Neel Desai

All right. So takeaways from today.

00:46:44:01 - 00:46:44:20

Patrick Campbell

What do you think, man?

00:46:45:08 - 00:46:47:21

Neel Desai

Got to stay authentic despite that, which.

00:46:47:21 - 00:46:53:15

Patrick Campbell

Is ironic, like staying authentic feels inauthentic. It's all right. Logical situation.

00:46:53:18 - 00:47:05:10

Neel Desai

It's only but but as I have a renewed sense of, I think being intentional about my relationships, I think especially in this SAS and tech world we live in, stay true to ourselves and stay true to who we are.

00:47:05:13 - 00:47:22:20

Patrick Campbell

Every time I listen to Dan Martell, it fires me up. I think it's because he's so passionate and so centered on certain aspects and just so it's a non boisterous confidence of just, Hey, this is what you need to do. And it's almost like telling it like it is. And so my biggest takeaway is, you know, it's all about people.

00:47:23:04 - 00:47:37:16

Patrick Campbell

And when it comes to people, it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to to have that anxiety and it's okay to find your way to build those relationships. It doesn't have to be going to conferences. It doesn't have to be doing what it wants them to be doing dinners. It could be, you know, chat rooms that you sign into.

00:47:37:16 - 00:47:50:19

Patrick Campbell

It could be on tour where you actually don't know the identity of that person, but you build that relationship with them. It's about finding finding that tribe in some particular way and making sure that you're being authentic with that tribe, which is so, so difficult.

00:47:50:20 - 00:47:56:14

Neel Desai

Totally. I think the other thing for me is like constantly paying it forward and finding a way to help others in the community, right?

00:47:56:17 - 00:48:13:03

Patrick Campbell

Yeah. If you're not a Daniel Bryan. Yeah, bring back that metaphor. They're awesome. Well, that's all for this week of Protect the Hustle. I'm Patrick Campbell. This is Neal, the sci fi. And if you enjoyed this episode, you got value from it. Make sure you're signed up at Protect the Hustle dot com and I'll see you next week.

00:48:16:01 - 00:48:28:03

Abby Sullivan

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