Becoming a Financial Storyteller with CJ Gustafson

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:08

CJ Gustafson

I thought that coming out of college they were going to throw me the keys to the car and making like these boardroom decisions of go versus buy know, like your first five years out of college, your stapler and papers, your scheduling meetings. It's kind of like here are dreams of sushi. You have to go down to the core level of how something is done and learn the craft before you can be at that level where you're making the decisions.

00:00:20:14 - 00:00:22:02

CJ Gustafson

My name is C.J. Gustafson.

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Daniëlle Keeven

C.J. is CFO of Parts.

00:00:23:14 - 00:00:27:13

CJ Gustafson

Tech, kind of the kayak.com of aftermarket auto.

00:00:27:13 - 00:00:31:19

Daniëlle Keeven

Parts, and he also runs one of the best newsletters out there called.

00:00:31:22 - 00:00:35:08

CJ Gustafson

Mostly Metrics every Tuesday at 722 Eastern.

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Daniëlle Keeven

But his journey to finance theater hasn't been without its fair share of bumps.

00:00:40:05 - 00:00:48:12

CJ Gustafson

That was the toughest interview I've ever done. I wrote that and sat on it for like eight months. Maybe that was the entrepreneurial God's trying to give me my $200,000 back.

00:00:48:14 - 00:00:52:10

Daniëlle Keeven

Join us as we learn about the kinetic life of C.J. Gustafson.

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CJ Gustafson

People aren't looking for just a better mousetrap. They're looking for something that defines the space that they're in and has a story around it.

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Daniëlle Keeven

My name is Daniel Keegan. Let's uncover the hidden stories of finance professionals as they navigate money, investment and growth. Let's look into the person behind the CFO title. Let's go beyond the budget.

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Daniëlle Keeven

Before we get into the episode. If you enjoyed the show, please leave a five star review of the podcast wherever you listen. It helps out the whole panel studios team tremendously and lets us continue to uncover the hidden stories of CFOs.

00:01:34:06 - 00:01:48:13

Daniëlle Keeven

C.J. grew up in New England. Most of his upbringing consisted of what you'd usually expect of someone with that background. Especially with his choice of sports teams. But one interest of his childhood has stuck with him all the way to the present day.

00:01:50:19 - 00:02:11:20

CJ Gustafson

I grew up in a suburb of Massachusetts. It's called Medfield. Everyone thinks it was either Medford or Midway. It was neither of those kind of southwest of the city. About 45 minutes, a small town. And yeah, we used to call it Mad Vegas because nothing would ever actually go on there. My childhood bedroom had an Allen Iverson poster.

00:02:11:20 - 00:02:32:14

CJ Gustafson

He was my favorite athlete growing up. Actually, behind me, there's a picture of Allen Iverson crossing over Michael Jordan. So even though I'm an adult now, I still have some like cartoons behind me. But yeah, I was a big basketball fan growing out. Everything Celtics big Patriots fan. And the room was just littered with baseball cards. They were always on the ground and I was always organizing them.

00:02:32:14 - 00:02:49:10

CJ Gustafson

I think that's kind of actually where part of my CFO mind comes from, because I'd be organizing them by team by year, even by player within that. If I had multiple cards of that player, I had that kind of organizational obsession. From the beginning. I wanted to be a point guard for the Celtics, but like, I never really got past the whole five foot eight thing.

00:02:49:10 - 00:03:05:21

CJ Gustafson

I also really enjoyed writing growing up, which is kind of an odd thing, I think, for a CFO to say, I wrote for my high school newspaper, I was the editor in chief of that or wrote for my college newspaper, and I've always been kind of a person who enjoys blogging and writing about what you learned. So I think I kind of took that with me.

00:03:05:21 - 00:03:25:17

CJ Gustafson

History. I won the History award in high school, actually. I took every history course that the school offered. And then I went to Boston College and I did finance. But I also dabbled in history, and I spent a couple of semesters actually studying the Vietnam War. So that's what I wrote. My my senior thesis on. My siblings are all very different in their own unique ways.

00:03:25:17 - 00:03:44:05

CJ Gustafson

My brother, he he's an enterprise sales person. He basically likes all the stuff that I don't like. He's very extroverted and like a cold call wouldn't might put him in a bad mood, whereas me, like it would terrify me that I was sisters and nurse. I have a sister who wants to be a human rights lawyer, and then I have two younger sisters who are still in school.

00:03:44:05 - 00:03:47:16

CJ Gustafson

So I don't know what that would be, but I think each person kind of had their own thing growing up.

00:03:49:23 - 00:04:01:23

Daniëlle Keeven

S.J. knew early on that he wanted to go into finance and chose to attend Boston College. As you'll hear next, he breaks down where that path began, which happened while he was eating his breakfast. As a child.

00:04:03:21 - 00:04:18:16

CJ Gustafson

I've always been fascinated by how companies make money at its core, and I always explain, actually, when we have new people join our company, like, Hey, do you actually know how part SEC makes money? And I'll break it down to like a very simple level because I think that informs all the other things you do in the organization.

00:04:18:20 - 00:04:43:13

CJ Gustafson

If you're a typical subscription company, you charge somebody the same amount every month that's going to inform your sales force versus like a marketplace. If you have a GMV take model in how you organize your resources around it. Really fascinated by like the media business growing up, how those companies made money. Like I would watch Sports Center every morning that was my favorite show and I was eating breakfast and I always thought it was so cool of how the business of ESPN came about.

00:04:43:13 - 00:04:57:07

CJ Gustafson

And I remember reading a book before I went to college. Actually, I think it was before I went to college and it was called Those Guys Have All the Fun. And I remember learning about the business behind sports. I think like I've always just been fascinated whether it's a lemonade stand or like I worked for landscaping and masonry company.

00:04:57:07 - 00:05:01:22

CJ Gustafson

I've always been interested in how they actually turn the service into, you know, money in the bank.

00:05:05:08 - 00:05:28:09

Daniëlle Keeven

While at Boston College, C.J. wrote for the school paper and one article he wrote called The Kardashian Triple Double. S.J. bemoaned the trend of celebrities thinking they can do what athletes do and vice versa. So he flipped the script on him and had him tell us who he thinks could do his job for one day. He then goes on to explain the meaning of his writing to him.

00:05:30:09 - 00:05:46:16

CJ Gustafson

It would be Walter White from Breaking Bad, but that's a fictional character. Yeah, he'd do. Or he'd do a great job while he would pillage the treasury of treats and we'd be broke. I think Walter White would do a really good job of making sure we got our money on time and that the inventory and logistics are so great.

00:05:46:16 - 00:06:02:18

CJ Gustafson

I think it's kind of my way to crystallize what I've learned. And I've realized that in the startup world, you play long term games with long term people, but it may be a different companies throughout. Like you work with people that you can build with, but you want to be able to have that playbook when you may be playing a different game.

00:06:02:18 - 00:06:15:02

CJ Gustafson

And I was learning a lot at the last few companies I worked at and I didn't want to forget it. And I also wanted an opportunity to talk to people who are smarter than me. And I got to a point where I was like, I don't think you can just ask everybody for 5 minutes or buy them coffee.

00:06:15:02 - 00:06:34:16

CJ Gustafson

You kind of need some sort of chip to say like, Hey, can I write about something you're interested in or can I interview you? And that's kind of how I was able to marry the idea of of writing with kind of the world of business and world of finance, financial storyteller. I think that's what I would put on my LinkedIn if I read the profile for clarity.

00:06:34:16 - 00:06:52:03

Daniëlle Keeven

Wall-E is just dark in the front of the show, but bringing it back to C.J. story, it was time for him to enter the workforce. He began his career at P.W See and tells us all about being blindsided by the work he was expecting to do. Listen on to figure out how he stayed motivated.

00:06:54:04 - 00:07:12:20

CJ Gustafson

I thought that coming out of college, like they were going to like, throw me the keys to the car and be like, Hey, can you calculate the net present value of like doing this transaction versus that and be like making like these boardroom decisions of like Bill versus buy know, like your first five years out of college, you're stapling papers, you're like scheduling meetings.

00:07:12:20 - 00:07:29:05

CJ Gustafson

And I think that was the stuff that if I could go back and tell myself, like, appreciate what you're learning now because it's kind of like documentary here. Dreams of Sushi and like you have to go down to the core level of how something is done and learn the craft before you can be at that level where you're making the decisions.

00:07:29:05 - 00:07:55:15

CJ Gustafson

And back then I was like a bit like, Wow, I didn't expect it to be this not glorious. I thought it was going to be out here, like buying and selling companies and stuff. And you do truly have to appreciate the craft of whatever you're getting good at and learn from the people above you. I do think, though, I did a really good job of like writing down and documenting what I was learning from people, not only like what they were doing well, but also like what I didn't want to be in ways people maybe like a manager would treat somebody else or the way that they would organize a project coming out of college.

00:07:55:15 - 00:08:10:05

CJ Gustafson

Answer your question. I thought it was going to be like, because they teach you these things that I think are great as a bedrock of knowledge, but you don't realize that you may not be able to use some of that stuff until like ten or 15 years later. I don't really remember the whole thing. I think it was like five interviews actually.

00:08:10:05 - 00:08:40:20

CJ Gustafson

That was, I think, the toughest interview I've ever done because I had to talk to multiple people. I'd go to New York for it and do like multiday things. And the jobs I got after that were from knowing other people, I think. And that's a different type of interview process. I think like you're kind of interviewing throughout the scope of the relationship with that person to kind of get in the door any of those big four companies coming out of college, they do their due diligence on you because I got access to read stuff that I wouldn't get to read elsewhere, like I would get thrown into like a data room and I'd have to

00:08:40:20 - 00:09:00:19

CJ Gustafson

figure out, like, what was the important information in there. I've always enjoyed reading, learning about businesses, and just like looking at the data and looking for the story. So even if I wasn't the one who was presenting it a lot of the times and even if it was like three quarters of the time was me printing it for other people, I think I really appreciated the ability to look at stuff that other people weren't privy to at the time.

00:09:04:02 - 00:09:11:12

Daniëlle Keeven

C.J. went on to work for a private equity firm. He shares the secrets he learned to, in his own words, make spreadsheets, sing.

00:09:14:15 - 00:09:33:00

CJ Gustafson

I think it's to break it into a format that's easily digestible. So like when you're thrown at a big set of data, like if it's a profit and loss statement, you want to organize it with putting the revenue at the top, getting to your gross margin, and then organizing the aspects into categories that you can get a trend from and also see where companies are investing.

00:09:33:00 - 00:09:49:07

CJ Gustafson

But yeah, I'd say it's kind of taking data and getting it into a digestible format. And then after that you kind of start to put a through line. And I think I'm a big believer in looking at like month over month trends. Whenever I get information on our company, I'll look and say, Well, let me see salary and benefits from month to month and see if it spikes.

00:09:49:07 - 00:10:07:04

CJ Gustafson

Let me see what we paid on our hosting and see if it spikes. And then after that I try to write down the big themes of what I'm going to present, and I usually try to. Someone smart once said to me, like, if you give me one or three things like I can act on that and I can remember it, but if you show up and you try to give me 12 bullet points on this data set that you're given, like I'm going to forget all of it, you basically gave me nothing.

00:10:07:04 - 00:10:16:02

CJ Gustafson

So like, I'm a big believer too, and like writing down the top things like you may not get to it all on the same presentation, but that's okay. You just have to distill out the best pieces.

00:10:18:20 - 00:10:36:03

Daniëlle Keeven

Along this journey. C.J and his wife Caitlin welcomed a Bernie Doodle puppy into their home named Wall-E. As previously discussed, Wall-E is a friend of the show sharing an office with her senior show producer Ben Hillman. We were curious what sort of lessons C.J. has learned from WALL-E and going through that next.

00:10:39:16 - 00:10:54:15

CJ Gustafson

He's always happy to be involved. We bring him pretty much everywhere with us. We're like those people who like bring their dog on the plane like where those people bring their dog to the mall and stuff. And I think he's just happy to be with people that he likes to be with and including him. I think he's taught me to be more inclusive.

00:10:54:15 - 00:11:12:01

CJ Gustafson

I love to run. I try to run with him and he just won't have it. Now he's getting lazy in his older age. I'm not sure where that comes from, but he's he's a very selective dog too. As you gotten older, I say he's gotten kiddo now, certain foods he won't like is a very delicate palate. We've gone through about 50 different types of food with them.

00:11:12:01 - 00:11:20:23

CJ Gustafson

He's a burner dude over contact help You imagine what he looks like. I heard there are a lot of stories of him stealing food from people in your office, maybe even your CEO a couple of times back in the day.

00:11:23:23 - 00:11:32:15

Daniëlle Keeven

C.J. Reese. His current position of CFO at Parts Stats. In September of 2022, Lexi shares what getting a CFO passport means to him.

00:11:35:08 - 00:12:03:22

CJ Gustafson

I don't think I ever feel like I'll ever finally make it in anything. I think this is insane. It's like there's no Elysium. There's there. There are always mountains behind the mountains in the sense that, like, you go as far as you can at that time and then you can see a little bit further. I think it was validation that I had taken the proper steps to kind of like get my you calling a CFO passport because I'd done a number of things along the way to try to get to that point where I had let up and done Treasury, I had done Investor Relations like I'd worked closely with the company and that was

00:12:03:22 - 00:12:21:08

CJ Gustafson

kind of like validation that that I could do it and that I could help build a team. But I think what excited me the most is like, it's a position too, that can help shape culture of a company kind of working hand in hand with the CEO to shape everything that goes on. That was really cool to kind of become part of that, you know, decision making process.

00:12:21:08 - 00:12:26:08

CJ Gustafson

And I and also for someone else to trust me with their company enough to let me know things along.

00:12:28:05 - 00:12:43:02

Daniëlle Keeven

Is a huge component of his success is that he's always moving when such moving part is his blog mostly metrics. He next talks about how he manages to juggle that alongside his daily work responsibilities and a newborn.

00:12:46:01 - 00:13:07:07

CJ Gustafson

I have a wonderful wife. She supports me in everything I do, and she helps me keep a good head on my shoulders. I think like I'm the type of person that doesn't do well with spare time. It actually, to be honest, it makes me really anxious. So I always need something to do and I'm always kind of looking to learn something that I didn't know before and add something to my toolkit.

00:13:07:07 - 00:13:22:15

CJ Gustafson

So I kind of look at the newsletter as my way of like crystallizing what I've learned, but also exploring things that are of interest to me that could help me in the future. So I feel like I'm making progress. I really like this show. Billions and Taylor Mason had this line that she said, It's not all because I think actors are just trying to throw money at her.

00:13:22:15 - 00:13:37:00

CJ Gustafson

And she said, you know, it's not all about money. Like, what I value most is forward momentum. And I think the newsletter helps me write stuff to make me feel like I'm getting better at something and making that forward momentum even like when I may not be at work. I wrote for over a year and a half and nobody read it.

00:13:37:00 - 00:13:59:02

CJ Gustafson

And that's like the mark of a true, crazy person. Every Tuesday at 722 Eastern, I think like consistency and showing up every day with a clear mind and like willingness to dig in is literally half the battle in my life. Like, I don't think I'm necessarily like, smarter than other people who are trying to do some things. I just think I keep showing up every day and like, you can punch me in the nose from the beginning again tomorrow.

00:13:59:08 - 00:14:01:04

CJ Gustafson

I don't know. I guess just a personality trait.

00:14:03:07 - 00:14:25:22

Daniëlle Keeven

Or two things happen to see the next one. He started a business with his wife and lost $200,000 in the process to a subscriber to his newsletter. I accidentally sent him $200,000 and KD had to jump through many hoops to make things right. You can read about the former in mostly metrics. BuzzFeed talks about the two events next and how they compare.

00:14:28:08 - 00:14:50:17

CJ Gustafson

Maybe that was like the entrepreneurial gods, like trying to give me my $200,000 back and I should have kept it. But no, I think they're different, but the same in the sense that it's just the mentality that you bring to something and trying your best and being honest about it. Trying to start my own company, that was a wild ride and ended in a way that I think at first I thought it was just like a total loss.

00:14:50:17 - 00:15:05:12

CJ Gustafson

And then the longer I looked at it and the longer I waited to see what came out of it, it actually led me to the current position of that. Like there's no way I could have got a CFO role at a marketplace company if I didn't try to start a marketplace on my own. But in the moment I was like, I am the biggest idiot in the world for spending all my money.

00:15:05:12 - 00:15:26:16

CJ Gustafson

Three years of weekends and nights like working on this to try to make it go. I think I have like a level of appreciation for people who have the guts to start something on their own. It's kind of like when I talk to other people who have failed at business before this instant connection that we have of like, Oh shit, you felt that pain before of like falling flat on your face and actually having to call it quits.

00:15:26:16 - 00:15:44:03

CJ Gustafson

I think quitting something is something that's never been easy for me to do, and I think quitting was actually the hardest part. All of it in the end, not just trying to build the company. And then the guy who sent me 200,000 I think was like $209,000. Wherever he is, I had to jump through hoops to get him that money back.

00:15:44:03 - 00:15:57:18

CJ Gustafson

But I think it's one of those things where if you don't have the the split second reaction of what you should do in that situation, you kind of are who you are. So I didn't really think about it either way. It was just kind of like I had to make it right. I wrote that and sat on it for like eight months.

00:15:57:18 - 00:16:16:06

CJ Gustafson

Like I just didn't have the didn't have the stomach to press publish. But when I did it, it felt pretty cathartic. I had it was funny. It was it ended up on like the front page of Hacker News for a while. And I had a combination of like people saying the nicest things ever and thanking me for my honesty, and then people calling me like really bad names, most of them like developers.

00:16:16:06 - 00:16:35:15

CJ Gustafson

Like, why didn't you just start with an MVP? Why didn't you do this? Right? I'm like, Yeah, I know. I wrote that down. I messed up. There was an outpouring of people that wrote like, Hey, I've had a similar experience. Here's my story. Like, I've never told anybody about this. Like, I felt terrible about it. I think admitting defeat is a humanizing thing that actually makes connections of people stronger.

00:16:35:15 - 00:16:51:05

CJ Gustafson

But like, when you're in the moment, you're like, I'm never gonna like anybody about this failure. But once it's kind of out there, it's all kind of part of your story. I think people look at other people who are successful and they cherry pick like highlights. I've had a couple of people say like, Oh, your newsletter so successful.

00:16:51:05 - 00:17:02:19

CJ Gustafson

I'm like, Yeah, but you haven't seen the 12 things that Fail that I find the things in like nobody knows about. I think that people like to pick out the highlight reels of what people in business do, whether that be an entrepreneur or CEO or CFO.

00:17:06:04 - 00:17:16:20

Daniëlle Keeven

From here. C.J. is well-suited to be a financial leader for years to come. Next, he talks about what he sees down the road for himself, as well as what makes a good benchmarking report.

00:17:18:23 - 00:17:43:07

CJ Gustafson

I don't know. I think each have their merits and each have like their opportunity to lead other people. I think starting as a CEO of your own company, you're taking something from 0 to 1 that has an exciting element to it. It's very challenging. And then I think coming in as professional CEO of a company that's already there, that that's another kind of challenge because you're taking something that's already come to a certain point and trying to get it to the next level.

00:17:43:07 - 00:18:06:21

CJ Gustafson

You see that a lot with hypergrowth companies where they'll bring in someone who has like a playbook to apply as it scales actually did a newsletter on this because I was kind of curious if the stocks of founder led companies performed better than professional CEO led companies. And what I saw was that the professional CEO companies had healthier all around financial kind of shape to them.

00:18:06:21 - 00:18:25:19

CJ Gustafson

Rule 40 like they were more efficient. But the founder led companies had a higher growth rate. So it was kind of like they had this founder mentality that was still like, damn the torpedoes, like we're growing. I know what's best for this. And like, I know I'm making broad classification here, but I thought it was interesting on like the different paths that companies take, depending on who is at the helm.

00:18:25:20 - 00:18:51:23

CJ Gustafson

A good benchmarking report is segmented by customer size, by industry, and by go to market model. A lot of benchmarking reports of one of those things, but not all of them. A benchmarking report that does a fantastic job of that is is open view. They're a VC firm out of Boston. They'll tell you like hey, a great net retention rate for a mid-market pod company is this And it's like that's the type of nuance you need to make a decision.

00:18:52:00 - 00:19:14:23

CJ Gustafson

A lot of benchmarks that are out there are way too broad and you can get false signals like if you're a company like parts tech that selling to garages across the country, you probably don't want to benchmark average revenue per employee. Again, it's like a snowflake, which is an enterprise usage based software company. I think like being able to drill down into those different classifications makes it a lot more meaningful.

00:19:18:02 - 00:19:25:23

Daniëlle Keeven

Next Digit talks about what keeps him motivated to show up every day, as well as how his various job experiences led him to where he is now.

00:19:29:00 - 00:19:43:22

CJ Gustafson

I need something to do. I mean, like it. I guess that's why we all have jobs, right? Because we get to do something every morning. No, but seriously, I do a lot of running. I run like six, seven, eight miles a day. And I think that keeps some of my energy in the right place. I think I'm just curious, to be honest.

00:19:43:22 - 00:20:01:04

CJ Gustafson

That's what keeps me coming back. And it keeps me digging into financial models metrics and just how how businesses on. It's kind of one of those things like you either love what you do and you love the craft, you love asking questions or you don't. And I think that's kind of what led me to this role, really. Like, I probably wasn't going to be a stellar consultant.

00:20:01:06 - 00:20:15:06

CJ Gustafson

I was probably going to be like a, B, B plus private equity. I was probably like a B minus. But those guys were really smart and like, I learned a lot along the way, but I feel like I'm kind of stacking my talents to something that also aligns with my interests. Or at least that's what I'm trying to do.

00:20:15:06 - 00:20:40:22

CJ Gustafson

I don't know if people ever find that Nirvana, but that's kind of my goal. I think I've kind of always had like an underdog mentality. I think I go back to fifth grade. I didn't make the travel basketball team and I remember shooting hoops every single day. So the next year I could make it. And I think like I've looked at different things along the way, not as like milestone, but as like validation that you can do something, that you can make the team and then you can make that team better.

00:20:40:22 - 00:21:00:08

CJ Gustafson

I think there's a bit of fifth grade basketball player or whatever it may be and all of us, and you're always kind of looking for that validation, not necessarily from other people, but from yourself that like you belong in that spot, in that net, you've made it. So it's all part of the journey. At the end of the day, it's really just scratching my own edge and it's kind of cool that other people came along for the ride.

00:21:00:08 - 00:21:14:17

CJ Gustafson

Like I said, like I rode for a year and a half for almost two years and nobody listened to me like I was going to keep writing no matter what. And I think that's the mark of like someone who takes what they're doing personally and seriously. And also, like at the end of the day, like I think a lot of people take business.

00:21:14:17 - 00:21:30:13

CJ Gustafson

I take the process of writing and documenting what I do seriously. Business can also be fun, and I also get kind of like rubbed the wrong way when people try to act like, Oh, I'm so much smarter or like, I'm trying to like dunk on somebody else, or I'm trying to just like, signal that I know something better than other people.

00:21:30:13 - 00:21:39:17

CJ Gustafson

It's like, Why can't business also be fun? And I kind of felt like that was missing. So maybe it was just me trying to have fun with what I was learning. And it's pretty cool that other people felt the same way about it.

00:21:42:16 - 00:21:55:15

Daniëlle Keeven

We've talked a lot on the show about the wrong assumptions made about CFOs. Next explains what some of those assumptions are, as well as his advice on how other CFOs can be financial storytellers themselves.

00:21:58:02 - 00:22:13:15

CJ Gustafson

That they wear like really ugly shoes. They were those like those New balance shoes that like dad to mow the lawn. So I think that's what they assume. But honestly, I think they assume that CFOs and this is like a change from CFOs used to be kind of like, Hey, it's your job to make the back office run on time.

00:22:13:15 - 00:22:33:19

CJ Gustafson

Now it's, hey, you're in charge of company performance like I call the CFO, the CPO, the Chief Performance officer. A lot of that too is because we've had a big op leveling in the tooling that people can use. So you can get metrics in one spot that used to be a disparate sources, but I think people think of a CFO sometimes as like a bean counter, somebody who has IQ below IQ.

00:22:33:19 - 00:22:54:14

CJ Gustafson

But I think CFOs these days, the best ones have a sense of everything that's going on in the company, including what's going on with the product, and also have a sense of emotional intelligence to talk to people from different backgrounds in the company. I think you got to figure out what makes the opportunity you're working on exciting and how to position your company as a category leader.

00:22:54:14 - 00:23:18:02

CJ Gustafson

People aren't looking for just like a better mousetrap. They're looking for something that defines the space that they're in and has a story around it. And also what I've noticed from the best marketers out there is they help the customers feel involved in that story. I've worked for companies before that worked and did security for developers, and we got the developers feeling like this was their product too, that they were pushing and we were enabling developers to code and feel more secure at the same time.

00:23:18:02 - 00:23:25:16

CJ Gustafson

And I think storytelling is like getting your audience involved in it, positioning your company as something bigger than just, like I said, a better mousetrap.

00:23:28:17 - 00:23:53:20

Daniëlle Keeven

Special thanks to C.J. Gustafson for being on the show. You can find him on LinkedIn and Twitter if you'd like to say thanks yourself. Know anyone who would be great for the show? Sent an email to our senior show producer Ben not Hillman and Padlocked Comm. Also, please leave a five star review if you enjoyed a podcast. We'll see you next time on Beyond the Budget, a podcast from Paddle Studios dedicated to helping you build better SaaS.